Harlan Ellison on God
By John DeNardo |
Thursday, December 10th, 2009 at
12:15 am
From the documentary Harlan Ellison: Dreams With Sharp Teeth.
[via the always-awesome Cynical-C Blog]
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Tagged with: Harlan Ellison
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Life is full of complexity, uncertainty, and moral ambiguity, and people deal with it different ways. Atheists take science and a rational, empirical process to understand the physical world; work out their own morality; and learn to live with the parts they can’t figure out. The religious have the freedom of trying the logical route, and if they can’t figure it out, they have the fail-safe fallback — ‘God is the answer’. I applaud the ease and convenience of that answer; too bad I lack the power of self-deception necessary to believe it. Oh well, what can I say, I outgrew fairy tales when I was about 6.
I do want to take exception to the following equally vacuous assertion by SQT, though.
The idea of human rights, of innate human dignity, the supposition that every living person is inherently as valuable as the next, is a distinctly Christian ideal.
Since I didn’t actually make the “vacuous assertion” I think I can call the commentator equally vacuous for quoting the wrong person. Just sayin’, it’s kind of lazy to fling insults at the wrong person.
FB
Fair enough. I won’t use the word “belief” when referring to evolution any more. I certainly don’t believe in the “young earth” myth. Though, to be fair, most people of faith I know don’t either. They subscribe to the “intelligent design” idea. I try to keep an open mind, but people who fully support the idea of the earth being– what 6,000 years old?– are nuts.
The interesting thing about this thread to me are all the generalizations being thrown about. It’s as if believers want to characterize non-believers as complete sociopaths and the non-believers want to characterize the believers as wild-eyed uneducated proselytizers.
I think a non-believers are generally just as moral as anyone else. I don’t think more or less of anyone based on a belief in God. I’m not particularly invested in convincing anyone to share my beliefs. I’m just trying to have a conversation about a topic that interests me.
Jeez. I wish I could edit my posts. Non-believers are just as moral as anyone else. Not generally so. I don’t believe that a belief in God is a litmus test for anyone’s morality.
When he says there’s no rhyme or reason and then goes off listing laws, darwinism… He’s explaining we as HUMAN BEINGS create laws and science disciplines not God(s). When he speaks of the universe not caring, it doesn’t, you care and others around you care but that doesn’t mean the universe cares. He’s trying to explain we are all bias enough to believe something that is billions of years old that hosts stars and planets and galaxies would “care” about us humans beings is laughable. The “Universe” is as inanimate as the bed you sleep on. Do you think your bed cares which side you sleep on?
Moreover, he’s illustrating on how we humans anthropomorphize the universe to suit our needs and to convince us that their is order in its chaos. If you study any scientific discipline long enough you’ll come to a point of finding out that it’s all chaotic and that we make it ordely for us to understand its chaos and apply for our needs. If you’re a religious person you,ll invoke god on ordering the chaos (god of the gaps, anyone). Like Isaac Newton did when he couldn’t explain how the heavens stayed together without ripping each other apart.
And no, Thomas Aquinas didn’t figure it out or I and everyone else on the planet would be Catholic. The fact that there are more muslims then catholics should convince you Tom didn’t figure it out.
I am an atheist and have been for years. I think there is a tendency for people to be believers in one kind of god or another. It is the way most of us are wired, maybe for evolutionary reasons. We are pattern spotters. We mix up correlation with cause and effect. We have mental experiences that are not easily explaned. We can enrapture ourselves. And we don’t want to die.
FB, there’s nothing wrong with saying you believe in evolution. I believe that 2+2=4, I believe that Paris is the capital of France, I believe that my car is red, I believe in the kinetic theory of gases, etc. I accept all these things as true, which means I believe them.
I mean, I’m guessing your beef with ‘believe’ is that you think beliefs come from the heart, not from the head (or something like that). But that’s not fair at all. That’s doing a disservice to a perfectly legitimate English word, the best single word we have for when you think something is true.
SQT,
It might surprise you to know just how common young-earth creationism is in the US.
About 45% of Americans think that “God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so”. And of course, the percentage of YECers would presumably rise a good deal if the poll were restricted to the 76% of Americans who subscribe to Christianity.
Gallup has asked this question for some 26 years: the results are 44%, 43%, 46%, 45%, 45%, 47%, 44%, 47%, 44%. Newsweek delivers 48% in 2007, CBS gets 48% in 2005 and 44% in 2006.
You can see these polls here.
Where was God when a little girl and her sister were repeatedly raped day after day for ten years by thier father who also allowed other “God Loving Christian men” to do the same to his little girls? Over a decade this happened EVERY DAY. What was the lesson God was teaching these little girls? Thier father was a devout christian/baptist who took his family to church every sunday and prayed with the family every day, yet told these little girls that they were dirty and that what was happening was thier fault… they needed to pray for forgiveness. Where was Jesus? Where was god? Where were the christian relatives and friends and pastors who suspected somthing was wrong but did nothing because this man was ” a good christian”? Bullshit to anyone to thinks they can be “born again”. Bullshit to anyone who thinks God is alive and active in thier lives. Faith can be a wonderful thing, believing in yourself and believeing that anything is possible is an awesome power. Believing there is some mystical god, jesus, ghost who is overseeing your life, granting your wishes, wanting you to achieve your full potential is just ridiculous. Believe in yourself and the potential for good in every human.
First of all: Nostradamus demolishes “atheism”
____________________________________________________
wait, wait…
I forgot something…
you little shits even talk about me….
GOATS ON FIRE….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssFaIhJkLsk
LIBERATION!
Sing from the rooftops:
“Atheism is dead!”
http://www.conspiracycafe.net/forum/index.php?/topic/25104-atheist-apocalypse/page__pid__117856_
I want to thank god and All the christians for the murders, rapes, and genocide,and biological warfare practiced on all indigeonus people. Keep your god and your christian ways leave us alone.
Did someone actually write that the Catholic Church is a NOBLE institution? Srsly?! What’re your thoughts on child rape and accessory to child rape? Is that a NOBLE thing, too?
Hm, I was just thinking… I’m sure this thought has been discussed by theologians and philosophers alike… but it occured to me for the first time when I read the comments here… I’d be interested in your opinions:
Barry said on December 10th: “And when a football player kneels in the endzone to thank God, he’s doing it as a personal communication to God, thankful for his athletic ability. And YES, it IS possible that God just might favor one team over another.”
A footballer thanks god for his athletic ability… he is on top of the spectrum of this specific ability, at the other end are people who can not take part in sports at all… if this footballer believes god has created the circumstances for him to develop this ability, or given that ability directly to him, what does he believe about the less fortunate people at the other end of the spectrum?
It seems to me that he has only two choices there… either god has made the decision to give these people poor athletic abilities, or god has simply not cared about these people, he let their abilities develop naturally or at random. In either case, the footballer believes he is chosen by god, whereas other people are not.
It would be the same if people thank god for a lucky event in their lives. If they truly believe in god’s involvement with that event, what do they think about a tragic event, such as when a child looses a limb in an accident? It seems to me that they must think god has decided for this accident to happen or at least not cared about it, whereas god has chosen and selected them specifically for their lucky event. That would be incredibly arrogant and cruel, in my eyes.
It would even seem that people of such mindset can not logically believe in the germ theory of disease, they must believe illnesses are wished by god upon the sufferers. Why help sufferers then? Why did Jesus heal sick people? It seems god wanted them to suffer.
Am I making a logical error here? Or are these people really that cruel and arrogant? Or do not they see the flaw in their reasoning?
I just noticed SQT said pretty much the same as Barry…
SQT said on December 10th: “I have no problem giving God credit for my accomplishments. It’s not that I have some self-centered idea that He’s taking a direct hand in my life. But perhaps he gave me the ability to reason and make moral decisions. Yes, I’m responsible if I don’t use those gifts as they were intended, but do I deserve credit because I was given the abilities in the first place? My cognitive abilities are not something I earned, they were a gift.”
SQT, I would love to know what you think about people who are less fortunate than you are. Does god also get credit for their misfortunes and disabilities?
I don’t mean this to be mean or arrogant, I’m just curious. Seriously.
Cake, I don’t think you’re trying to be arrogant or mean. You’re just asking a question. The truth is, I don’t know. I was simply trying to say that traits that are unique to people, the ability to reason being at the top of the list, are not learned but something we’re born with. Whether that’s evolution or God’s gift seems to be up to interpretation. I know people who think everything is part of a bigger plan. Call it God, call it fate. Others think it’s totally random.
I know that belief in God could very well be based in biology. It could be the “God gene” doing the talking. All I know is that I don’t know anything for certain. I do think that as time goes on, science is going to open doors to new dimensions and really turn what we think we know on its ear. I think that what we know now is a tiny fraction of what there is to know. I’m not trying to be wishy-washy, I’m just pretty sure that what I don’t know far, far outweighs what I do know.
And Dave2, those statistics are mind boggling.
<i>The idea of human rights, of innate human dignity, the supposition that every living person is inherently as valuable as the next, is a distinctly Christian ideal. And, without that ideal, the rights stemming from it are ungrounded.</i>
This if my favorite quote of all–a microcosm of the hypocrisy and lack of understanding with which believers practice their faith. Have you read the bible? The idea that the bible supports the inherent value of human rights and dignity would be laughable if it weren’t for the fact that it’s christian supporters actually believe does. Its absurd and gulling. The bible is disturbing and vicious. Of course, modern day christians excuse the misogyny, bigotry and hate by renaming its lessons as “parables”. But any person who can read the bible then profess that they are a follower of it’s religion–the mental gymnastics are as impressive as they are disturbing.
H.E. is just saying if a volcano erupts and wipes out a city full of people, if four hurricanes rip through Florida in one season, if boats bring rats bringing fleas to a continent that results in wiping our a third of the human population…
The simplest explanation is that the Earth/ Universe is vast and individual humans are small and we just happen to get in the way of the indifferent forces of nature. Volcanos, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, asteroids… these are all just going about their own way oblivious to any of the destruction that they cause or lives that they ruin. Plague, disease, inherited afflictions, these are just other organisms trying to feed their little tiny families or unlucky mistakes in genetic shuffling in our daddy’s testicles. (A good reason for wearing boxers!)
Some people choose to ascribe many or all of these things to supernatural powers, mainly because of the oral and written traditions passed onto them by their ancestors. Because they have no tangible evidence, they claim that there is value in faith, believing in things which one cannot possibly prove. Unfortunately, faith can be used to justify virtually anything – any imaginable permutation of Christianity, every religion that has ever existed, from Wicca to Roman pantheism to Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judiasm, to Flying Sphaghetti monsters… to David Koresh and dreams of aliens hiding behind comets waiting to beam us up if we’re wearing the right sneakers. It can be used to justify astrology, homeopathy, Conservatism, Liberalism, Communism, Nazism, UFOlogy, conspiracy theories, and any kind of philosophical persuasion imaginable.
I require tangible evidence. Science requires tangible evidence. Ellison requires tangible evidence. And what do you have to offer me? Tangible evidence? Without tangible evidence, how am I to decide which of the 1,545,932,431 versions of faith I should follow?
God is just a word to describe the Source of all Things. Point is we don’t know what that is. Everyone has all kinds of guesses but no one knows. Many claim to have knowledge, but that knowledge is not verifble.
What is verifible is that there is a way in which we can live that leads to our happiness, joy, and peace as well as the happiness, joy, and peace of others. That way is the way of love. Why do we sit around and argue over what to call the Ultimate? All sides say the same thing:
“I am right!!! You are wrong!”
The message from many religions and philosophies is essentially the same:
Seek the Truth with all of your heart, that is love wisdom–philosophy.
Love one another.
Secular Humanists believe this. So do Muslims. So do Buddhists. So do Christians.
Those who believe in God: remember any image or idea you have of God is not God. God must transcend that. “He who seeks God under settled form lays hold of the form, while missing the God concealed in it.”–Meister Eckhart, a 13 century german mystic theologian.
Those who don’t believe in God: He who seeks Truth under settled form lays hold of the form (theory), while missing the Reality concealed in it.
It is good to have discussions of what is true, but I think being able to respect each other’s views and listen to them and love the people we are talking to is more important then that.
Let us not sacrifice our love for our brothers and sisters in all of humanity on the alter of “Being Right”.
Paul Bloom has explained all this. God is false childhood assumption.
Mikha’ek, I think you’re confusing your personal Shangri-La vision of religion with religion as it actually exists in the real world.
The sort of universalist assimilation you’re floating is flatly incompatible with most religions, especially exclusivist monotheisms like Christianity and Islam. Don’t let uplift get in the way of reality.
Mikha’el: God is just a word to describe the Source of all Things. Point is we don’t know what that is.
No, that’s not correct at all. God is a specific term used by most deists to refer to their specific omnipotent deity deserving of worship. Christians believe that word specifically refers to Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who was born 2000 years ago and died around 1975 years ago.
It’s really easy to try to divest all of the inherent meaning of a word and shift the goal posts to argue a broader point. I mean, if God is the begining and source of all things, then can an atheist really deny his reality? Is God the Big Bang?
No Christian really actually thinks of God as a single event that happened billions of years ago, but rather as a conscious, aware, and powerful invisible and supernatural being.
Words matter, and the definitions of words matter. “God” is not and has never been reasonably defined in the way that you suggest, and it cheapens and devalues the debate to suggest so because it confuses the matter at hand. It obfuscates what people actually believe and what they say about it.
What is at stake is a specific, defined being, not some vague “we don’t know what that is” philosophical concept.