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	<title>Comments on: The Resonance, Artifice and (Possible) Enervation of Epic Fantasy</title>
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	<description>A science fiction blog featuring science fiction book reviews and with frequent ramblings on fantasy, computers and the web.</description>
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		<title>By: Ben Godby</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90808</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Godby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Great analysis, John. I&#039;m actually interested to hear more about this &quot;anti-epic&quot; to which you allude at the very end of your essay. Something I&#039;ve been thinking about lately is how&#160;fantasy - epic or otherwise - is so tangled up with power, and, particularly, violence (both hard and soft kinds). Although I&#039;ve read a few fantasies where the violent/power-struggling elements are rather muted, I haven&#039;t found many.&#160;In my own writing, I&#039;ve started writing fantasy stories whose protagonists are poets or streetpavers and nothing more, and where the arc of the story is much more &quot;personal&quot; and not tied up with Crushing Your Worst Enemy.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Anyway, if this sort of non-violent fantasy is what an &quot;anti-epic&quot; might be... well, someone point me in the right direction so I can read some!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Because yeah I&#039;m kind of over violence.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great analysis, John. I&#8217;m actually interested to hear more about this &#8220;anti-epic&#8221; to which you allude at the very end of your essay. Something I&#8217;ve been thinking about lately is how&nbsp;fantasy &#8211; epic or otherwise &#8211; is so tangled up with power, and, particularly, violence (both hard and soft kinds). Although I&#8217;ve read a few fantasies where the violent/power-struggling elements are rather muted, I haven&#8217;t found many.&nbsp;In my own writing, I&#8217;ve started writing fantasy stories whose protagonists are poets or streetpavers and nothing more, and where the arc of the story is much more &#8220;personal&#8221; and not tied up with Crushing Your Worst Enemy.</p>
<p>Anyway, if this sort of non-violent fantasy is what an &#8220;anti-epic&#8221; might be&#8230; well, someone point me in the right direction so I can read some!</p>
<p>Because yeah I&#8217;m kind of over violence.</p>
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		<title>By: John Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90807</link>
		<dc:creator>John Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Ken:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thanks for your comment!&#160; I have loved Tunnels &amp; Trolls since it first came out.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There&#039;s a lot in your response to mull over, but two immediate reactions:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;1) I think you&#039;re right that epic fantasy, at its base, is about magnitude and scope.&#160; In fact, many definitions I came across use that word specifically to name a central characteristic of the term.&#160; That narrative hugeness is linked to the fate of a land or world, indeed.&#160; But I think that is just the first level of definition, and there are a number of assumptions bound up with that idea (about power, the nature of conflict, how heroes figure into the story, etc.).&#160; I think that comes out in your immediate distinction between heroic, low, and epic strains of fantasy.&#160; As you compare the idea of epic fantasy to other subgenres, more distinctions become apparent.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;2) I like this idea of &quot;low fantasy&quot; very much.&#160; Most sword-and-sorcery, I think, is low fantasy, as are some other subgenres (like New Weird, perhaps?).&#160; I haven&#039;t read Brent Weeks&#039; &lt;em&gt;Night Angel&lt;/em&gt; books, but I&#039;ve heard that they are a fusion between epic fantasy and your idea of low fantasy, which sounds like a fascinating trick to pull off.&#160; I am alsoquite intrigued by your characterization of Lerotra&#039;hh&#039;s origin as a &quot;low fantasy,&quot; when that has the potential to be more like an old-school epic.&#160; But I see your point that the focus of the struggle in the story on a person is the essence of low fantasy.&#160; That sounds like an idea that would be interesting to expound upon and explore!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;3) Your last paragraph is worth a discussion all on its own, about how fantasy and actuality are blended in different genres.&#160; I broadly agree with you.&#160; I think that the outlandishness of epic fantasy is a combination of strength and potentially fatal flaw in the genre.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken:</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment!&nbsp; I have loved Tunnels &amp; Trolls since it first came out.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot in your response to mull over, but two immediate reactions:</p>
<p>1) I think you&#8217;re right that epic fantasy, at its base, is about magnitude and scope.&nbsp; In fact, many definitions I came across use that word specifically to name a central characteristic of the term.&nbsp; That narrative hugeness is linked to the fate of a land or world, indeed.&nbsp; But I think that is just the first level of definition, and there are a number of assumptions bound up with that idea (about power, the nature of conflict, how heroes figure into the story, etc.).&nbsp; I think that comes out in your immediate distinction between heroic, low, and epic strains of fantasy.&nbsp; As you compare the idea of epic fantasy to other subgenres, more distinctions become apparent.</p>
<p>2) I like this idea of &#8220;low fantasy&#8221; very much.&nbsp; Most sword-and-sorcery, I think, is low fantasy, as are some other subgenres (like New Weird, perhaps?).&nbsp; I haven&#8217;t read Brent Weeks&#8217; <em>Night Angel</em> books, but I&#8217;ve heard that they are a fusion between epic fantasy and your idea of low fantasy, which sounds like a fascinating trick to pull off.&nbsp; I am alsoquite intrigued by your characterization of Lerotra&#8217;hh&#8217;s origin as a &#8220;low fantasy,&#8221; when that has the potential to be more like an old-school epic.&nbsp; But I see your point that the focus of the struggle in the story on a person is the essence of low fantasy.&nbsp; That sounds like an idea that would be interesting to expound upon and explore!</p>
<p>3) Your last paragraph is worth a discussion all on its own, about how fantasy and actuality are blended in different genres.&nbsp; I broadly agree with you.&nbsp; I think that the outlandishness of epic fantasy is a combination of strength and potentially fatal flaw in the genre.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken St. Andre</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90806</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken St. Andre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Don&#039;t you think epic is simply a matter of geographic and cultural scope?&#160; Epic deals with matters that affect countries, peoples, or worlds.&#160; The opposite of epic fantasy is not heroic fantasy--it is low fantasy.&#160; Low fantasy deals with the adventures of individuals just trying to stay alive in a fantastic world.&#160; Heroic fantasy is a different thing.&#160; It needs heroes who do heroic things.&#160; In my own Tunnels and Trolls mythos, the struggle between Lerotra&#039;hh and Khazan is an epic fantasy--it spans centuries and determines the fate and history of the entire western part of the Dragon continent.&#160; If you read the Trollworld chronology, you can see the various decision points that determined what happened.&#160; The epic fantasy becomes implicit in the mind of the reader and the gamer who plays Tunnels &amp; Trolls in my world.&#160; If I wrote a novel or series of novels about the War of Liberation for the monster kindreds, that would be an epic fantasy.&#160; Instead, I wrote the origin story for Lerotra&#039;hh.&#160; That&#039;s a low fantasy--it deals with the struggles of one individual to survive.&#160; I suppose if I could follow it up with a series of novels, or even stories that detail her life until she becomes Empress of Khazan thenit would become part of an epic fantasy--that&#039;s not likely to happen.&#160; I don&#039;t have the stamina for that much writing.&#160; Personally, as a reader, I&#039;m happier with low fantasy.&#160; The self consciously epic stuff has a tendancy to bog down in repetition after a while.&#160; Robert Jordan&#039;s Eye of the World series was epic--no doubt about it.&#160; However, each succeeding book told less story and repeated more of the tropes of the previous ones until at the end it was almost unreadable, and he&#039;ll never finish the epic.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Epic fantasy also defies believability in a way that low fantasy doesn&#039;t.&#160; The fate of worlds, nations, peoples rarely hinges on a single individual.&#160; The fate of individuals, however, is very often determined by individual effort.&#160; Thus, low fantasy is more credible, less repetitive, and altogether more fun to read and write.&#160; I say let the epics be implicit.&#160; Give me the explicit hero sagas and survival stories of low fantasy 99% of the time.&lt;/p&gt;

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t you think epic is simply a matter of geographic and cultural scope?&nbsp; Epic deals with matters that affect countries, peoples, or worlds.&nbsp; The opposite of epic fantasy is not heroic fantasy&#8211;it is low fantasy.&nbsp; Low fantasy deals with the adventures of individuals just trying to stay alive in a fantastic world.&nbsp; Heroic fantasy is a different thing.&nbsp; It needs heroes who do heroic things.&nbsp; In my own Tunnels and Trolls mythos, the struggle between Lerotra&#8217;hh and Khazan is an epic fantasy&#8211;it spans centuries and determines the fate and history of the entire western part of the Dragon continent.&nbsp; If you read the Trollworld chronology, you can see the various decision points that determined what happened.&nbsp; The epic fantasy becomes implicit in the mind of the reader and the gamer who plays Tunnels &amp; Trolls in my world.&nbsp; If I wrote a novel or series of novels about the War of Liberation for the monster kindreds, that would be an epic fantasy.&nbsp; Instead, I wrote the origin story for Lerotra&#8217;hh.&nbsp; That&#8217;s a low fantasy&#8211;it deals with the struggles of one individual to survive.&nbsp; I suppose if I could follow it up with a series of novels, or even stories that detail her life until she becomes Empress of Khazan thenit would become part of an epic fantasy&#8211;that&#8217;s not likely to happen.&nbsp; I don&#8217;t have the stamina for that much writing.&nbsp; Personally, as a reader, I&#8217;m happier with low fantasy.&nbsp; The self consciously epic stuff has a tendancy to bog down in repetition after a while.&nbsp; Robert Jordan&#8217;s Eye of the World series was epic&#8211;no doubt about it.&nbsp; However, each succeeding book told less story and repeated more of the tropes of the previous ones until at the end it was almost unreadable, and he&#8217;ll never finish the epic.</p>
<p>Epic fantasy also defies believability in a way that low fantasy doesn&#8217;t.&nbsp; The fate of worlds, nations, peoples rarely hinges on a single individual.&nbsp; The fate of individuals, however, is very often determined by individual effort.&nbsp; Thus, low fantasy is more credible, less repetitive, and altogether more fun to read and write.&nbsp; I say let the epics be implicit.&nbsp; Give me the explicit hero sagas and survival stories of low fantasy 99% of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: John Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90805</link>
		<dc:creator>John Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Paul:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;First, thanks for the warm welcome!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Second, your comments about epic fantasy possibly being played out and the ascendence of other genres is a topic I would like to explore further at some point.&#160; As I noted at the end of this column, I think that the idea from the WFC panel that epic fantasies need to be shorter to compete is just an indicator of a number of changes in reception, audience, and market forces.&#160; I agree that the times are a-changin&#039;, and I am going to talk about that a bit next week.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m intrigued by the idea that sword-and-sorcery&#039;s resurgence might be a factor in epic fantasy&#039;s decline, both in terms of popularity but perhaps also in designation?&#160; Are there hybrid stories out there that take on the genre appelation that the publisher thinks will make them sell better?&#160; Does that affect the readers&#039; reception of that work?&#160; And, what do writers need to do to revitalize epic fantasy, if indeed we need to do so?&#160; This is a question that I am pondering personally as I write my first novel, which dips a toes into several related genres, including epic fantasy, at least a bit.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul:</p>
<p>First, thanks for the warm welcome!</p>
<p>Second, your comments about epic fantasy possibly being played out and the ascendence of other genres is a topic I would like to explore further at some point.&nbsp; As I noted at the end of this column, I think that the idea from the WFC panel that epic fantasies need to be shorter to compete is just an indicator of a number of changes in reception, audience, and market forces.&nbsp; I agree that the times are a-changin&#8217;, and I am going to talk about that a bit next week.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m intrigued by the idea that sword-and-sorcery&#8217;s resurgence might be a factor in epic fantasy&#8217;s decline, both in terms of popularity but perhaps also in designation?&nbsp; Are there hybrid stories out there that take on the genre appelation that the publisher thinks will make them sell better?&nbsp; Does that affect the readers&#8217; reception of that work?&nbsp; And, what do writers need to do to revitalize epic fantasy, if indeed we need to do so?&nbsp; This is a question that I am pondering personally as I write my first novel, which dips a toes into several related genres, including epic fantasy, at least a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90804</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;I do think the times are a changing. &#160;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&#160;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Things happen in cycles, and sword and sorcery seems to be having a renaissance. Is it &quot;eating&quot; epic fantasy&#039;s market share?--perhaps. &#160;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&#160;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Its also a matter of the epic fantasy genre having been played out, at least the moment. It&#039;s had a several decade run. &#160;In time, I think there will be a resurgence, with new writers revitalizing the genre.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&#160;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Today seems to be the day for paranormal romance, steampunk and S&amp;S. &#160;5 years from now--who knows?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&#160;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&#160;&lt;/p&gt;

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do think the times are a changing. &nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Things happen in cycles, and sword and sorcery seems to be having a renaissance. Is it &#8220;eating&#8221; epic fantasy&#8217;s market share?&#8211;perhaps. &nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Its also a matter of the epic fantasy genre having been played out, at least the moment. It&#8217;s had a several decade run. &nbsp;In time, I think there will be a resurgence, with new writers revitalizing the genre.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Today seems to be the day for paranormal romance, steampunk and S&amp;S. &nbsp;5 years from now&#8211;who knows?</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/01/the_resonance_artifice_and_possible_enervation_of_epic_fantasy/#comment-90803</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Welcome, John!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&#160;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(really a placeholder comment while I think about the meaty topic you have raised...)&lt;/p&gt;

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome, John!</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>(really a placeholder comment while I think about the meaty topic you have raised&#8230;)</p>
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