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	<title>Comments on: [To the Ends of the Universe] White-Hot Lusty Vampires in Love: The Dismissal and Power of Paranormal Romance</title>
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	<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/</link>
	<description>A science fiction blog featuring science fiction book reviews and with frequent ramblings on fantasy, computers and the web.</description>
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		<title>By: tam</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99824</link>
		<dc:creator>tam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Felicia Day and Veronica Belmont have a fun monthly video show where they discuss paranormal romance/urban fantasy: http://vaginalfantasy.com]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felicia Day and Veronica Belmont have a fun monthly video show where they discuss paranormal romance/urban fantasy: <a href="http://vaginalfantasy.com" rel="nofollow">http://vaginalfantasy.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lisa Paitz Spindler</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99821</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Paitz Spindler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s a lot to unpack here, but I&#039;m so glad you brought up this topic. First, I see why you mentioned Twilight even if it doesn&#039;t work for me personally. I agree that Russ probably would have hated Twilight, but would have loved that it existed at all. After all, we can&#039;t be having a conversation about how passive Bella is if the character didn&#039;t exist in the first place. 

In addition to Marilynn&#039;s recommendations, I&#039;d also add J.R. Ward&#039;s Black Dagger Brotherhood series and Lara Adrian&#039;s Midnight series. Both vampire series have a lot in common and I&#039;d love to write a comparison on them sometime. Since I often recommend Ward&#039;s first in the BDB series, Dark Lover, as a &quot;grown up Twilight,&quot; I&#039;d also like to see a comparison between Bella and Beth, the heroine in Dark Lover. Ward&#039;s series has sometimes come under fire for its passive heroines, but a closer examination reveals that the series shows quite a range of different types of women, some of whom are indeed more passive, while others are definitely of the &quot;warrior woman&quot; archetype (Xhex in particular). 

What&#039;s interesting about Ward&#039;s Beth, especially in comparison to Bella, is that Beth starts out as your everyday girl with an office job who finds out she something else entirely. Having the hero by her side along that path is certainly important, but it&#039;s not only through him that she attains her new self. Wrath is certainly initiatory in some areas of their relationship, but in the final steps Beth has to take on her own. 

Connected to this topic is the expected power balance between heroines and heroes in PBR. A while ago I &lt;a href=&quot;http://dearauthor.com/features/letters-of-opinion/enter-the-extraordinary-heroine-are-we-ready-for-her-yet/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bemoaned the fact that in PNR often the hero gets to be the paranormal character.&lt;/a&gt;

While I have enjoyed PNRs with &quot;vampire boyfriends&quot; where the hero is the paranormal character, I don&#039;t want that to be my only option. At this point it&#039;s become a trope to me so I&#039;m looking for PNRs where the heroine or both characters are paranormal. In that respect, I&#039;d love to flip the ideas and see a PNR series about a vampire sisterhood. If we can wrap our brains around that idea, then maybe we can finally figure out who Wonder Woman is supposed to be in the 21st century.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a lot to unpack here, but I&#8217;m so glad you brought up this topic. First, I see why you mentioned Twilight even if it doesn&#8217;t work for me personally. I agree that Russ probably would have hated Twilight, but would have loved that it existed at all. After all, we can&#8217;t be having a conversation about how passive Bella is if the character didn&#8217;t exist in the first place. </p>
<p>In addition to Marilynn&#8217;s recommendations, I&#8217;d also add J.R. Ward&#8217;s Black Dagger Brotherhood series and Lara Adrian&#8217;s Midnight series. Both vampire series have a lot in common and I&#8217;d love to write a comparison on them sometime. Since I often recommend Ward&#8217;s first in the BDB series, Dark Lover, as a &#8220;grown up Twilight,&#8221; I&#8217;d also like to see a comparison between Bella and Beth, the heroine in Dark Lover. Ward&#8217;s series has sometimes come under fire for its passive heroines, but a closer examination reveals that the series shows quite a range of different types of women, some of whom are indeed more passive, while others are definitely of the &#8220;warrior woman&#8221; archetype (Xhex in particular). </p>
<p>What&#8217;s interesting about Ward&#8217;s Beth, especially in comparison to Bella, is that Beth starts out as your everyday girl with an office job who finds out she something else entirely. Having the hero by her side along that path is certainly important, but it&#8217;s not only through him that she attains her new self. Wrath is certainly initiatory in some areas of their relationship, but in the final steps Beth has to take on her own. </p>
<p>Connected to this topic is the expected power balance between heroines and heroes in PBR. A while ago I <a href="http://dearauthor.com/features/letters-of-opinion/enter-the-extraordinary-heroine-are-we-ready-for-her-yet/" rel="nofollow">bemoaned the fact that in PNR often the hero gets to be the paranormal character.</a></p>
<p>While I have enjoyed PNRs with &#8220;vampire boyfriends&#8221; where the hero is the paranormal character, I don&#8217;t want that to be my only option. At this point it&#8217;s become a trope to me so I&#8217;m looking for PNRs where the heroine or both characters are paranormal. In that respect, I&#8217;d love to flip the ideas and see a PNR series about a vampire sisterhood. If we can wrap our brains around that idea, then maybe we can finally figure out who Wonder Woman is supposed to be in the 21st century.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Sanford</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99693</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Sanford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 23:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff: You don&#039;t have to like Twilight to not be overlooking women&#039;s fiction. That&#039;s not at all what I was saying with the essay. And as others have said Twilight is a piss-poor example of women&#039;s literature. 

I made a mistake using Twilight as the example in my essay. I should have picked another paranormal romance--Twilight simply pushes too many buttons with people. But what I was trying to say was that its silly to dismiss paranormal romances as a WHOLE. Obviously individual novels and authors in the genre are crap and should be pointed out as the crap they are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff: You don&#8217;t have to like Twilight to not be overlooking women&#8217;s fiction. That&#8217;s not at all what I was saying with the essay. And as others have said Twilight is a piss-poor example of women&#8217;s literature. </p>
<p>I made a mistake using Twilight as the example in my essay. I should have picked another paranormal romance&#8211;Twilight simply pushes too many buttons with people. But what I was trying to say was that its silly to dismiss paranormal romances as a WHOLE. Obviously individual novels and authors in the genre are crap and should be pointed out as the crap they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Sanford</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99692</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Sanford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 22:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99692</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you ask the average reader to name the most famous paranormal romance series around, 95% of them will say the Twilight series. Doesn&#039;t matter if it is technically young adult, that&#039;s what people see it as. Personally, I can&#039;t stand the series and I didn&#039;t list it here to say this is what paranormal romances are or should be. Instead, what I said was &quot;Perhaps the most famous paranormal romance series is Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight series...&quot; I merely listed those two series in passing because they are what most readers think of when the term paranormal romance comes up.

Marilynn, you are correct--I&#039;m likely not as well read in paranormal romance as you are. But this essay wasn&#039;t a summary of the best paranormal romances out there. Instead, it was an exploration of why so many people dismiss this entire genre out of hand. I asked paranormal romance and UF authors to comment on this and reported what they said, along with my own views on the subject.

People don&#039;t have to like paranormal romances. People can hate or love whatever they want. My only point with this essay was to explore why so many people seem to dismiss paranormal romances out of hand, without even reading in the genre. That&#039;s all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you ask the average reader to name the most famous paranormal romance series around, 95% of them will say the Twilight series. Doesn&#8217;t matter if it is technically young adult, that&#8217;s what people see it as. Personally, I can&#8217;t stand the series and I didn&#8217;t list it here to say this is what paranormal romances are or should be. Instead, what I said was &#8220;Perhaps the most famous paranormal romance series is Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight series&#8230;&#8221; I merely listed those two series in passing because they are what most readers think of when the term paranormal romance comes up.</p>
<p>Marilynn, you are correct&#8211;I&#8217;m likely not as well read in paranormal romance as you are. But this essay wasn&#8217;t a summary of the best paranormal romances out there. Instead, it was an exploration of why so many people dismiss this entire genre out of hand. I asked paranormal romance and UF authors to comment on this and reported what they said, along with my own views on the subject.</p>
<p>People don&#8217;t have to like paranormal romances. People can hate or love whatever they want. My only point with this essay was to explore why so many people seem to dismiss paranormal romances out of hand, without even reading in the genre. That&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff vandermeer</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99690</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff vandermeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 21:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marilynn: My feeling as well  re Jason&#039;s exposure to these genres. Those authors are great choices and ones that make me want to learn more.

And if I have to like the atrocious Twilight to not be overlooking women&#039;s fiction something is really messed up in the world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marilynn: My feeling as well  re Jason&#8217;s exposure to these genres. Those authors are great choices and ones that make me want to learn more.</p>
<p>And if I have to like the atrocious Twilight to not be overlooking women&#8217;s fiction something is really messed up in the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilynn Byerly</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99686</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilynn Byerly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 16:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wouldn&#039;t call my definitions fine slicing, Jason.  Anyone who reads more than a few of these books knows that UF and PNR are distinctly different types of books.  As different as a cozy mystery and a thriller, or hard science fiction and space operas.

You obviously mean well, and that&#039;s all right with me, but you simply haven&#039;t read enough in this genre to recognize what is and isn&#039;t a paranormal romance.

Here&#039;s a reading list.  

PARANORMAL ROMANCE

Christine Feehan.  Her male good vampire characters are beyond abusive to many of us, and some of her female characters are adult Bellas, but she is one of the major authors in this genre.  Less urban fantasy than many.

Sherrilyn Kenyon.  Her &quot;Dark Hunter&quot; series is very well written, and she has a strong background in fantasy so her worldbuilding is impeccable.

Marjorie M. Liu.  One of the best writers in this genre, and she doesn&#039;t &quot;do&quot; vampires and the usual UF tropes.

URBAN FANTASY (I&#039;ve chosen series that aren&#039;t the standard leather-wearing babe with a sword and a vampire lover UF.)

Darynda Jones.  Her comic &quot;Grave&quot; series is about ghosts and demons.

Anton Strout.  His Simon Canderous series has a male protagonist and isn&#039;t your usual UF.

Laura Anne Gilman. Her &quot;Paranormal Scene Investigations&quot; is CSI: The Magic Division.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t call my definitions fine slicing, Jason.  Anyone who reads more than a few of these books knows that UF and PNR are distinctly different types of books.  As different as a cozy mystery and a thriller, or hard science fiction and space operas.</p>
<p>You obviously mean well, and that&#8217;s all right with me, but you simply haven&#8217;t read enough in this genre to recognize what is and isn&#8217;t a paranormal romance.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a reading list.  </p>
<p>PARANORMAL ROMANCE</p>
<p>Christine Feehan.  Her male good vampire characters are beyond abusive to many of us, and some of her female characters are adult Bellas, but she is one of the major authors in this genre.  Less urban fantasy than many.</p>
<p>Sherrilyn Kenyon.  Her &#8220;Dark Hunter&#8221; series is very well written, and she has a strong background in fantasy so her worldbuilding is impeccable.</p>
<p>Marjorie M. Liu.  One of the best writers in this genre, and she doesn&#8217;t &#8220;do&#8221; vampires and the usual UF tropes.</p>
<p>URBAN FANTASY (I&#8217;ve chosen series that aren&#8217;t the standard leather-wearing babe with a sword and a vampire lover UF.)</p>
<p>Darynda Jones.  Her comic &#8220;Grave&#8221; series is about ghosts and demons.</p>
<p>Anton Strout.  His Simon Canderous series has a male protagonist and isn&#8217;t your usual UF.</p>
<p>Laura Anne Gilman. Her &#8220;Paranormal Scene Investigations&#8221; is CSI: The Magic Division.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Sanford</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99684</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Sanford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 12:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Over on his Livejournal account at http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1754570.html Nick Mamatas responds to this essay. I posted the following response there...

Nick: You raise some good points, even though I obviously don&#039;t agree with a number of them. But I do want to state that my essay never said paranormal romance was being suppressed. While that word is contained in the title of Joanna Russ&#039; book, which I reference, what I said was that certain people dismiss the subgenre out of hand. Obviously the subgenre isn&#039;t suppressed because it sells like a billion copies and has so many readers.

As for my motivation, I write what I like and read what I like. The fiction which excites me tends to be highly literate with deeper meaning and craft. But that doesn&#039;t mean I don&#039;t also enjoy cheese fests and quickly hacked out novels, which makes up the vast majority of all fiction. Simply tell me a good story with at least a decent level of writing and I&#039;m happy, even if I won&#039;t be re-reading or recommending that story later on.

I personally don&#039;t care if someone is a neckbeard, part of the hardcore SF community, or someone who has never attended a con--if you like good stories, you&#039;re alright with me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over on his Livejournal account at <a href="http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1754570.html" rel="nofollow">http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1754570.html</a> Nick Mamatas responds to this essay. I posted the following response there&#8230;</p>
<p>Nick: You raise some good points, even though I obviously don&#8217;t agree with a number of them. But I do want to state that my essay never said paranormal romance was being suppressed. While that word is contained in the title of Joanna Russ&#8217; book, which I reference, what I said was that certain people dismiss the subgenre out of hand. Obviously the subgenre isn&#8217;t suppressed because it sells like a billion copies and has so many readers.</p>
<p>As for my motivation, I write what I like and read what I like. The fiction which excites me tends to be highly literate with deeper meaning and craft. But that doesn&#8217;t mean I don&#8217;t also enjoy cheese fests and quickly hacked out novels, which makes up the vast majority of all fiction. Simply tell me a good story with at least a decent level of writing and I&#8217;m happy, even if I won&#8217;t be re-reading or recommending that story later on.</p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t care if someone is a neckbeard, part of the hardcore SF community, or someone who has never attended a con&#8211;if you like good stories, you&#8217;re alright with me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Sanford</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99683</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Sanford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 12:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks to everyone for the comments. A few responses:

1) Obviously the finely tuned slicing of different subgenres and genres is open to interpretation. I doubt anything will ever change this. While humans love definitions, we also love leaving enough wiggle room in our definitions to allow us to do whatever the hell we want when we want it. So it is with assigning different books to different genres.

2) I&#039;m pretty sure Joanna Russ would have hated Twilight on a personal level even as she smiled at all the attention the series received.

3) Just because certain people dismiss a subgenre or genre doesn&#039;t mean it can&#039;t also be a massive success with tons of sales. I&#039;ll address this point in my next comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to everyone for the comments. A few responses:</p>
<p>1) Obviously the finely tuned slicing of different subgenres and genres is open to interpretation. I doubt anything will ever change this. While humans love definitions, we also love leaving enough wiggle room in our definitions to allow us to do whatever the hell we want when we want it. So it is with assigning different books to different genres.</p>
<p>2) I&#8217;m pretty sure Joanna Russ would have hated Twilight on a personal level even as she smiled at all the attention the series received.</p>
<p>3) Just because certain people dismiss a subgenre or genre doesn&#8217;t mean it can&#8217;t also be a massive success with tons of sales. I&#8217;ll address this point in my next comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Saragne</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99682</link>
		<dc:creator>Saragne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 11:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The interesting thing about Paranormal Romance (except Twillight) is that it provides young women with strong self sufficient female characters to look up to. This is something Historical romance already did and I feel it is very important.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The interesting thing about Paranormal Romance (except Twillight) is that it provides young women with strong self sufficient female characters to look up to. This is something Historical romance already did and I feel it is very important.</p>
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		<title>By: Michele Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99679</link>
		<dc:creator>Michele Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 01:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99679</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I always blurred the line between YA and adult books because it&#039;s happening a lot. Twilight has a huge adult audience, only partially because a large number of people who began reading it as teens are now adults watching the movies as they come out. This is true of Harry Potter fans as well.

I hear a lot of grumping in the horror field about Twilight corrupting the genre. But it&#039;s not a horror novel. It&#039;s not at all designed to invoke fear. It&#039;s a PNR all the way. 

As for the Sookie books, they have always been in the SF/F section when I&#039;ve gone to the store. Bookstores class books based on what label the publisher gives them. So while Harris&#039; Sookie books are in SF/F but her Harper Connelley books (which also have a touch of paranormal) are put in mystery with Harris&#039; other series.

There is a lot of cross over, and a lot of blurring because you can find UF and PRN books anywhere from YA to SF/F to mystery or romance sections. As an avid reader of all those genres I never really know whether I&#039;ll be getting a PRN when I pick up a book or a gritty UF unless I know the author already.

It is a problem, not for me and people who read nearly anything like me, but there are a ton of people who really do only want one type of thing. They want that PNR and nothing dark or gritty. Publishers blurring marketing to confuse that are going to get pinched back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always blurred the line between YA and adult books because it&#8217;s happening a lot. Twilight has a huge adult audience, only partially because a large number of people who began reading it as teens are now adults watching the movies as they come out. This is true of Harry Potter fans as well.</p>
<p>I hear a lot of grumping in the horror field about Twilight corrupting the genre. But it&#8217;s not a horror novel. It&#8217;s not at all designed to invoke fear. It&#8217;s a PNR all the way. </p>
<p>As for the Sookie books, they have always been in the SF/F section when I&#8217;ve gone to the store. Bookstores class books based on what label the publisher gives them. So while Harris&#8217; Sookie books are in SF/F but her Harper Connelley books (which also have a touch of paranormal) are put in mystery with Harris&#8217; other series.</p>
<p>There is a lot of cross over, and a lot of blurring because you can find UF and PRN books anywhere from YA to SF/F to mystery or romance sections. As an avid reader of all those genres I never really know whether I&#8217;ll be getting a PRN when I pick up a book or a gritty UF unless I know the author already.</p>
<p>It is a problem, not for me and people who read nearly anything like me, but there are a ton of people who really do only want one type of thing. They want that PNR and nothing dark or gritty. Publishers blurring marketing to confuse that are going to get pinched back.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilynn Byerly</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99677</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilynn Byerly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many women find TWILIGHT offensive because of Bella&#039;s passivity and her need for a man to give her value which are NOT acceptable to most romance readers.   I imagine it would have bothered Russ as much as the rest of us.

As someone who has read widely in paranormal romance (PNR) and urban fantasy, I have some issues with some of the classifications.  TWILIGHT and some of the other popular series are considered young adult paranormals, not PNR, and that&#039;s where you find them in the bookstore. 

The &quot;Southern Vampire&quot; series is sold as a mystery, not as PNR, and its structure is a mystery with some romance.  Sookie has a number of romances and lovers through the series, and the romantic relationships don&#039;t drive the plot.  

A better example would be the novels of Christine Feehan or Sherrilyn  Kenyon.  

In most cases, each novel in a PNR series is set in the same world as the others, but there is a different hero and heroine to fall in love in each novel.  Often the heroes or the heroines are part of a group where each character gets his own book and true love.  

The leather-wearing female/hero isn&#039;t as common in PNR where the heroines/heroes are as likely to be a regular person caught up in paranormal weirdness, and the lover of choice doesn&#039;t have to have fangs, fur, or pointy ears.  

PNR also has a much wider variation than UF.  Not only is there the standard UF fantasy tropes, but PNR can also include psychics, reincarnation, and time travel among other tropes.

As a member of some  PNR reader lists whose membership is in the thousands and quite vocal on their likes and dislikes, I don&#039;t think non-PNR books need to be classified as PNR to reach their audience.  Romance readers are the most omnivorous readers in genre, and they are as happy to read UF as PNR if there&#039;s some romance and a good female character to root for.  What does annoy them is books which are mislabeled.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many women find TWILIGHT offensive because of Bella&#8217;s passivity and her need for a man to give her value which are NOT acceptable to most romance readers.   I imagine it would have bothered Russ as much as the rest of us.</p>
<p>As someone who has read widely in paranormal romance (PNR) and urban fantasy, I have some issues with some of the classifications.  TWILIGHT and some of the other popular series are considered young adult paranormals, not PNR, and that&#8217;s where you find them in the bookstore. </p>
<p>The &#8220;Southern Vampire&#8221; series is sold as a mystery, not as PNR, and its structure is a mystery with some romance.  Sookie has a number of romances and lovers through the series, and the romantic relationships don&#8217;t drive the plot.  </p>
<p>A better example would be the novels of Christine Feehan or Sherrilyn  Kenyon.  </p>
<p>In most cases, each novel in a PNR series is set in the same world as the others, but there is a different hero and heroine to fall in love in each novel.  Often the heroes or the heroines are part of a group where each character gets his own book and true love.  </p>
<p>The leather-wearing female/hero isn&#8217;t as common in PNR where the heroines/heroes are as likely to be a regular person caught up in paranormal weirdness, and the lover of choice doesn&#8217;t have to have fangs, fur, or pointy ears.  </p>
<p>PNR also has a much wider variation than UF.  Not only is there the standard UF fantasy tropes, but PNR can also include psychics, reincarnation, and time travel among other tropes.</p>
<p>As a member of some  PNR reader lists whose membership is in the thousands and quite vocal on their likes and dislikes, I don&#8217;t think non-PNR books need to be classified as PNR to reach their audience.  Romance readers are the most omnivorous readers in genre, and they are as happy to read UF as PNR if there&#8217;s some romance and a good female character to root for.  What does annoy them is books which are mislabeled.</p>
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		<title>By: cofax</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99676</link>
		<dc:creator>cofax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99676</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Do you think Russ liked or would have liked Twilight? Because I rather think she would not have liked Twilight.&lt;/i&gt;

... and so?  That doesn&#039;t mean much: I&#039;m sure there are plenty of books written by women that Joanna Russ didn&#039;t like.  

I don&#039;t think that actually speaks to Jason&#039;s point, though, which is that one of the reasons paranormal romance/urban fantasy is so widely disdained is that it is written primarily by, and for, women.

I &lt;i&gt;highly&lt;/i&gt; recommend reading Meg Wolitzer&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/books/review/on-the-rules-of-literary-fiction-for-men-and-women.html?ref=megwolitzer&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;essay&lt;/a&gt; in this week&#039;s &lt;i&gt;New York Times Magazine&lt;/i&gt; about the positioning of and critical response to fiction written by women writers, which looks at this issue in the mainstream (non-genre) literary world.  It&#039;s all of a piece.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Do you think Russ liked or would have liked Twilight? Because I rather think she would not have liked Twilight.</i></p>
<p>&#8230; and so?  That doesn&#8217;t mean much: I&#8217;m sure there are plenty of books written by women that Joanna Russ didn&#8217;t like.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that actually speaks to Jason&#8217;s point, though, which is that one of the reasons paranormal romance/urban fantasy is so widely disdained is that it is written primarily by, and for, women.</p>
<p>I <i>highly</i> recommend reading Meg Wolitzer&#8217;s <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/books/review/on-the-rules-of-literary-fiction-for-men-and-women.html?ref=megwolitzer" rel="nofollow">essay</a> in this week&#8217;s <i>New York Times Magazine</i> about the positioning of and critical response to fiction written by women writers, which looks at this issue in the mainstream (non-genre) literary world.  It&#8217;s all of a piece.</p>
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		<title>By: tam</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99675</link>
		<dc:creator>tam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This genre is way over-saturated though.  Even Laura Resnic said so.  But then again, so is steampunk (sorry Jeff) and zombies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This genre is way over-saturated though.  Even Laura Resnic said so.  But then again, so is steampunk (sorry Jeff) and zombies.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff VanderMeer</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99673</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff VanderMeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a question, since you cite Russ. Do you think Russ liked or would have liked Twilight? Because I rather think she would not have liked Twilight.

JeffV]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a question, since you cite Russ. Do you think Russ liked or would have liked Twilight? Because I rather think she would not have liked Twilight.</p>
<p>JeffV</p>
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		<title>By: Paul (@princejvstin)</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/04/white-hot-lusty-vampires-in-love/#comment-99672</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul (@princejvstin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=52962#comment-99672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This pattern of dismissing certain types of books which are either written or read by women is called “false categorizing,” a term created by Nebula and Hugo Award winning author Joanna Russ in her classic literary critique How to Suppress Women’s Writing. False categorizing is where works by certain authors or on certain subjects are placed in unworthy genres, which are dismissed by society at large.


Wow, I&#039;d love to listen to a conversation between you and John H Stevens.  :)

But I agree. I was Hulk-Smash angry yesterday when a critic came on the local public radio station and said adults should not read Harry Potter or the Hunger Games.  

Turns out said critic doesn&#039;t even read adult genre novels.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This pattern of dismissing certain types of books which are either written or read by women is called “false categorizing,” a term created by Nebula and Hugo Award winning author Joanna Russ in her classic literary critique How to Suppress Women’s Writing. False categorizing is where works by certain authors or on certain subjects are placed in unworthy genres, which are dismissed by society at large.</p>
<p>Wow, I&#8217;d love to listen to a conversation between you and John H Stevens.  <img src='http://www.sfsignal.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But I agree. I was Hulk-Smash angry yesterday when a critic came on the local public radio station and said adults should not read Harry Potter or the Hunger Games.  </p>
<p>Turns out said critic doesn&#8217;t even read adult genre novels.</p>
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