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	<title>Comments on: The Problem of the Idealized Reader in Fantastika</title>
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	<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/</link>
	<description>A science fiction blog featuring science fiction book reviews and with frequent ramblings on fantasy, computers and the web.</description>
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		<title>By: KarlB</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100497</link>
		<dc:creator>KarlB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 17:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Offering to elaborate on specific points that are unclear in any of your articles is like offering to fix the dents in a car that&#039;s been crushed down into a two-foot cube.

Like I said above, it would be an interesting exercise to go through an article with you word by word and sentence by sentence, but that would also be a months-long process. It wouldn&#039;t be THAT interesting, for either of us.

I suppose it&#039;s unfair to accuse you of deliberately trying to obfuscate. But you have adopted a style of writing that has that effect, and I firmly do not believe that there&#039;s anything inherent to the ideas you&#039;re trying to convey that requires such a style of writing. I think, rather, that your writing is simply bad, awful, wrong, and not fit for public consumption.

But I&#039;m sure it&#039;s far beyond my meager powers of persuasion to convince you of that. I&#039;ll just have to renew my resolve to avoid reading your articles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Offering to elaborate on specific points that are unclear in any of your articles is like offering to fix the dents in a car that&#8217;s been crushed down into a two-foot cube.</p>
<p>Like I said above, it would be an interesting exercise to go through an article with you word by word and sentence by sentence, but that would also be a months-long process. It wouldn&#8217;t be THAT interesting, for either of us.</p>
<p>I suppose it&#8217;s unfair to accuse you of deliberately trying to obfuscate. But you have adopted a style of writing that has that effect, and I firmly do not believe that there&#8217;s anything inherent to the ideas you&#8217;re trying to convey that requires such a style of writing. I think, rather, that your writing is simply bad, awful, wrong, and not fit for public consumption.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s far beyond my meager powers of persuasion to convince you of that. I&#8217;ll just have to renew my resolve to avoid reading your articles.</p>
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		<title>By: John H. Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100495</link>
		<dc:creator>John H. Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 12:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a general response to comments here:

If a commenter points out something specific that is unclear, I am always willing to elaborate on it further. The goal here is not to obfuscate the topic but to consider other angles of inquiry. The objective is not to inhibit understanding but to consider different approaches to understanding ideas and issues. Sometimes the idea work, sometimes they don&#039;t. It&#039;s an ongoing effort to think more deeply and hopefully with more sophistication about fantastic literature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a general response to comments here:</p>
<p>If a commenter points out something specific that is unclear, I am always willing to elaborate on it further. The goal here is not to obfuscate the topic but to consider other angles of inquiry. The objective is not to inhibit understanding but to consider different approaches to understanding ideas and issues. Sometimes the idea work, sometimes they don&#8217;t. It&#8217;s an ongoing effort to think more deeply and hopefully with more sophistication about fantastic literature.</p>
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		<title>By: KarlB</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100487</link>
		<dc:creator>KarlB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2012 13:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yay, a fellow voice of sanity. 

It would be an interesting exercise to go over one of these articles with Stevens word by word and sentence by sentence: &quot;How do you justify the use of this word? And this phrase? Isn&#039;t this convoluted sentence really just making this simple point? So why didn&#039;t you word it that way?&quot; and so on.

To an extent, one can forgive Stevens&#039; on the basis that this sort of horrible writing is encouraged in  literary theory and related fields. But only to an extent. Contrary to the opinion of many, literary theory is a real field of study that has meaningful things to say. It isn&#039;t just a puffed-up meringue of highfalutin words that mean little or nothing. And that&#039;s exactly what Stevens&#039; articles are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yay, a fellow voice of sanity. </p>
<p>It would be an interesting exercise to go over one of these articles with Stevens word by word and sentence by sentence: &#8220;How do you justify the use of this word? And this phrase? Isn&#8217;t this convoluted sentence really just making this simple point? So why didn&#8217;t you word it that way?&#8221; and so on.</p>
<p>To an extent, one can forgive Stevens&#8217; on the basis that this sort of horrible writing is encouraged in  literary theory and related fields. But only to an extent. Contrary to the opinion of many, literary theory is a real field of study that has meaningful things to say. It isn&#8217;t just a puffed-up meringue of highfalutin words that mean little or nothing. And that&#8217;s exactly what Stevens&#8217; articles are.</p>
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		<title>By: David Howarth</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100482</link>
		<dc:creator>David Howarth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 19:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100482</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, don&#039;t feel stupid. I hold a Masters in sociology, my advisor was a critical theorist who graduated from the New School for Social Research, and I wrote my thesis on cyberpunk science fiction under her guidance utilizing the methodological tools of cultural theory, and I can only just barely follow the obfuscatory Clutean mumbo-jumbo that passes for thoughtfulness in these entries. The point of the jargon isn&#039;t to make you feel stupid; it&#039;s to make the author feel smart. While I can appreciate that specialized terminology is useful at times in order to define concepts and make arguments with precision, at some point it just becomes insulting to the uninitiated. Stevens jetted past that point at near-lightspeed some time ago. Frankly, he lost me at &quot;fantastika&quot;, a catchall category that persumably could include anything and everything, from the latest Sookie Stackhouse vampire lifestyle novel to the most inscrutable fiction of Borges--and hence ultimately is meangingless.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, don&#8217;t feel stupid. I hold a Masters in sociology, my advisor was a critical theorist who graduated from the New School for Social Research, and I wrote my thesis on cyberpunk science fiction under her guidance utilizing the methodological tools of cultural theory, and I can only just barely follow the obfuscatory Clutean mumbo-jumbo that passes for thoughtfulness in these entries. The point of the jargon isn&#8217;t to make you feel stupid; it&#8217;s to make the author feel smart. While I can appreciate that specialized terminology is useful at times in order to define concepts and make arguments with precision, at some point it just becomes insulting to the uninitiated. Stevens jetted past that point at near-lightspeed some time ago. Frankly, he lost me at &#8220;fantastika&#8221;, a catchall category that persumably could include anything and everything, from the latest Sookie Stackhouse vampire lifestyle novel to the most inscrutable fiction of Borges&#8211;and hence ultimately is meangingless.</p>
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		<title>By: KarlB</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100459</link>
		<dc:creator>KarlB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 12:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t feel stupid, Splicer. The article is terribly written, and uses gobbledygook &quot;scholar-ese&quot; language to make a few simple ideas as difficult-to-understand as possible. Every time I read one of Stevens&#039; pieces I just end up getting infuriated at the incredibly pretentious language that&#039;s slathered like vomit-flavored frosting over some remarkably mundane ideas. And then I get infuriated at myself for being stupid enough to bother reading him.

Must... stop... reading... Stevens...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t feel stupid, Splicer. The article is terribly written, and uses gobbledygook &#8220;scholar-ese&#8221; language to make a few simple ideas as difficult-to-understand as possible. Every time I read one of Stevens&#8217; pieces I just end up getting infuriated at the incredibly pretentious language that&#8217;s slathered like vomit-flavored frosting over some remarkably mundane ideas. And then I get infuriated at myself for being stupid enough to bother reading him.</p>
<p>Must&#8230; stop&#8230; reading&#8230; Stevens&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: lorq</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100449</link>
		<dc:creator>lorq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 21:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(Or, contrariwise, it&#039;s that you are not [yet] the ideal reader the essay is aimed at.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Or, contrariwise, it&#8217;s that you are not [yet] the ideal reader the essay is aimed at.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: lorq</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100448</link>
		<dc:creator>lorq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 21:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, as the essay itself explains, it&#039;s not because you actually are stupid -- it&#039;s that, evidently, you lack the proper reading protocols for understanding it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as the essay itself explains, it&#8217;s not because you actually are stupid &#8212; it&#8217;s that, evidently, you lack the proper reading protocols for understanding it.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul (@princejvstin)</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100447</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul (@princejvstin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 20:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The map of SF in books is not congruent at all with the map of genre in movies and visual media.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The map of SF in books is not congruent at all with the map of genre in movies and visual media.</p>
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		<title>By: John H. Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100446</link>
		<dc:creator>John H. Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 20:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that caution is required when using research that has a different context and focuses on a different genre (in terms of form) of reading material. I am looking for more research on novel reading to see how Barnes&#039; idea holds up. But I was surprised to notice that some of Jo Walton&#039;s examples in her discussion of reading protocols fit what he was describing in terms of reading effects. I am very interested in pursuing this further and seeing what else I can learn.

I also agree that more people DO like SF, but in other forms. There have been a few books written about SF film that I think might hold some useful information about this. They are also on my list to look at. Genre is not just about the literature itself, and it may be that differently skilled or invested readers engage and use genre in different ways. SO much to look at!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that caution is required when using research that has a different context and focuses on a different genre (in terms of form) of reading material. I am looking for more research on novel reading to see how Barnes&#8217; idea holds up. But I was surprised to notice that some of Jo Walton&#8217;s examples in her discussion of reading protocols fit what he was describing in terms of reading effects. I am very interested in pursuing this further and seeing what else I can learn.</p>
<p>I also agree that more people DO like SF, but in other forms. There have been a few books written about SF film that I think might hold some useful information about this. They are also on my list to look at. Genre is not just about the literature itself, and it may be that differently skilled or invested readers engage and use genre in different ways. SO much to look at!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris, King of Elfland's 2nd Cousin</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100445</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris, King of Elfland's 2nd Cousin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 18:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for diving into this issue this week, John, and for pointing us to John Barnes&#039; piece (I hadn&#039;t seen it yet, and it&#039;s given me a lot to think about).

While I am fairly sympathetic to Barnes&#039; overall conclusions, I&#039;d like to caution about basing them too heavily on his magazine reader &quot;research&quot;. A near-century of media research teaches us that media consumption is contextual, depending on location, time, the medium in question, etc. In other words, consuming a magazine (or even a local magazine in particular) is a completely different behavioral activity than consuming a book (regardless of its genre). Which means that the cognitive strategies used for one may not translate to the other. I don&#039;t read brochures, for example, with the same level of attention that I read books. That being said, I think Barnes&#039; conclusions about the weaknesses inherent in the ideas of reading protocols are pretty accurate.

Which brings me back to the concept of &quot;casual fantastika readers&quot; or readers Who Don&#039;t Get It. Often, many of these same readers will happily consume speculative content in non-written media: how many people who &quot;don&#039;t read/like to read science fiction&quot; saw Inception? How many saw Avatar? It strikes me that today&#039;s audience has the &quot;SF modules&quot; in place: they know how to decode fantastic content because they already do so across multiple media. But why does their enjoyment of/willingness to engage these &quot;SF modules&quot; vary across media? Is the process by which we decode written fantastika more cumbersome than that of audio/visual fantastika? Is the experience really that different across different media? And if the broader community has such &quot;SF modules&quot;, how does that affect our conception of the field and the audience? How does it affect creators/community-members&#039; relationship with that audience?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for diving into this issue this week, John, and for pointing us to John Barnes&#8217; piece (I hadn&#8217;t seen it yet, and it&#8217;s given me a lot to think about).</p>
<p>While I am fairly sympathetic to Barnes&#8217; overall conclusions, I&#8217;d like to caution about basing them too heavily on his magazine reader &#8220;research&#8221;. A near-century of media research teaches us that media consumption is contextual, depending on location, time, the medium in question, etc. In other words, consuming a magazine (or even a local magazine in particular) is a completely different behavioral activity than consuming a book (regardless of its genre). Which means that the cognitive strategies used for one may not translate to the other. I don&#8217;t read brochures, for example, with the same level of attention that I read books. That being said, I think Barnes&#8217; conclusions about the weaknesses inherent in the ideas of reading protocols are pretty accurate.</p>
<p>Which brings me back to the concept of &#8220;casual fantastika readers&#8221; or readers Who Don&#8217;t Get It. Often, many of these same readers will happily consume speculative content in non-written media: how many people who &#8220;don&#8217;t read/like to read science fiction&#8221; saw Inception? How many saw Avatar? It strikes me that today&#8217;s audience has the &#8220;SF modules&#8221; in place: they know how to decode fantastic content because they already do so across multiple media. But why does their enjoyment of/willingness to engage these &#8220;SF modules&#8221; vary across media? Is the process by which we decode written fantastika more cumbersome than that of audio/visual fantastika? Is the experience really that different across different media? And if the broader community has such &#8220;SF modules&#8221;, how does that affect our conception of the field and the audience? How does it affect creators/community-members&#8217; relationship with that audience?</p>
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		<title>By: Splicer</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100443</link>
		<dc:creator>Splicer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 17:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have never felt more stupid than I do after having read that piece. I know the words are in English but for the life of me have no idea what&#039;s being discussed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never felt more stupid than I do after having read that piece. I know the words are in English but for the life of me have no idea what&#8217;s being discussed.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul (@princejvstin)</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/05/the-problem-of-the-idealized-reader-in-fantastika/#comment-100441</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul (@princejvstin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 15:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=55729#comment-100441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To complicate your thesis, here, John, I think that certain works of fantastika, or to broaden it, certain strata of fantastika are more amenable to being read with no protocols or minimal protocols. 

I would not give a first time reader of genre Greg Egan or (most) Gene Wolfe, for example. 

I think of Fantastika as a pool with gradations, and certain authors or books are closer or further from the shallow end of that fantastika, depending less or more on readers being already immersed in the pool to appreciate the book on a fantastika level. 

And I see this John not only in terms of being familiar with the tropes and furniture of fantastika, but also the ongoing conversation between works of the genre--for example, Doctorow&#039;s LITTLE BROTHER.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To complicate your thesis, here, John, I think that certain works of fantastika, or to broaden it, certain strata of fantastika are more amenable to being read with no protocols or minimal protocols. </p>
<p>I would not give a first time reader of genre Greg Egan or (most) Gene Wolfe, for example. </p>
<p>I think of Fantastika as a pool with gradations, and certain authors or books are closer or further from the shallow end of that fantastika, depending less or more on readers being already immersed in the pool to appreciate the book on a fantastika level. </p>
<p>And I see this John not only in terms of being familiar with the tropes and furniture of fantastika, but also the ongoing conversation between works of the genre&#8211;for example, Doctorow&#8217;s LITTLE BROTHER.</p>
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