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	<title>Comments on: MIND MELD: Monarchies in Fantasy</title>
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	<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/</link>
	<description>A science fiction blog featuring science fiction book reviews and with frequent ramblings on fantasy, computers and the web.</description>
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		<title>By: drs</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101355</link>
		<dc:creator>drs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Regarding Mark’s comment on “true Athenian democracy”: The 6,000 Athenian citizens had their true democracy resting on the backs of perhaps 100,000 slaves and indentured servants who had no voting privileges or any of the benefits the 6,000 enjoyed.&quot;

I think there were a lot more male citizens than that.  6000 was what they could fit in the agora.  First they used public slaves to round up people to make quorum; later they paid for Assembly attendance, and the slaves made sure only the first 6000 people got in.

Fantasies with government but no monarchy at all: I don&#039;t know of any.
Fantasies with non-monarchy governments: Hobbit and LotR for startes; Master of Lake-Town and Mayor of the Shire (okay, of Michel Delving) were elected.
Hmm, Lud-in-the-Mist?  Elected mayor as the only human government I think, maybe elfland monarchy.  Small scale, though.

The Liveship Trader books feature foreign despotism, and a native oligarchy that undergoes democratic rebellion.

David D. Friedman wrote a &#039;fantasy&#039; with Icelandic anarchy vs. an intruding empire.  Fantasy in quotes since I can&#039;t recall any supernatural elements, more like secondary world history.

Webcomics: Errant Story didn&#039;t have any monarchies.  Vague council in magical pseudo-Japan; frontier libertarian anarchy; pseudo-Catholic theocracy; vague elven council; northern city-states.

Googling:
&quot;R.A. Salvatore&#039;s Icewind Dale Trilogy depicts a group of ten towns that are governed by a democratic council.&quot;

&quot;China Mieville&#039;s New Crobuzon (in Perdido Street Station and other books) is a city-state and a republic, though a very corrupt one.&quot;  I don&#039;t remember if the leader was strong enough to count as a monarch.

===

&quot;For everyone to be able to vote you not only need some form of instant long-distance communication to coordinate elections, you also need to be able to show everyone who they can vote for and if you have a very large state it’s not very feasible for candidates to travel all over in a limited amount of time&quot;

These sorts of arguments imply that the 1787 USA couldn&#039;t have existed.  Colonial US stretched over a long distance, and soon spread to inland areas like Kentucky.  And that&#039;s with presidential elections and two-year House elections, never mind simply having a longer term Parliament of local reps.

Democracy doesn&#039;t have to have modern forms.  You could have the European proto-democracies, of a strong king ameliorated by a nascent House of Commons or Estates-General -- how many fantasies even have that?  And of course the Athenian and Roman models are pretty different from modern times, or each other, and could inspire a lot of permutations.  (They were arguably too democratic -- too tied to direct democracy within the city -- to extend easily to their empires, unlike US representative democracy.  Can you imagine ways in which they could have evolved their own distinctive ways of sharing power with their colonies and empire?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Regarding Mark’s comment on “true Athenian democracy”: The 6,000 Athenian citizens had their true democracy resting on the backs of perhaps 100,000 slaves and indentured servants who had no voting privileges or any of the benefits the 6,000 enjoyed.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think there were a lot more male citizens than that.  6000 was what they could fit in the agora.  First they used public slaves to round up people to make quorum; later they paid for Assembly attendance, and the slaves made sure only the first 6000 people got in.</p>
<p>Fantasies with government but no monarchy at all: I don&#8217;t know of any.<br />
Fantasies with non-monarchy governments: Hobbit and LotR for startes; Master of Lake-Town and Mayor of the Shire (okay, of Michel Delving) were elected.<br />
Hmm, Lud-in-the-Mist?  Elected mayor as the only human government I think, maybe elfland monarchy.  Small scale, though.</p>
<p>The Liveship Trader books feature foreign despotism, and a native oligarchy that undergoes democratic rebellion.</p>
<p>David D. Friedman wrote a &#8216;fantasy&#8217; with Icelandic anarchy vs. an intruding empire.  Fantasy in quotes since I can&#8217;t recall any supernatural elements, more like secondary world history.</p>
<p>Webcomics: Errant Story didn&#8217;t have any monarchies.  Vague council in magical pseudo-Japan; frontier libertarian anarchy; pseudo-Catholic theocracy; vague elven council; northern city-states.</p>
<p>Googling:<br />
&#8220;R.A. Salvatore&#8217;s Icewind Dale Trilogy depicts a group of ten towns that are governed by a democratic council.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;China Mieville&#8217;s New Crobuzon (in Perdido Street Station and other books) is a city-state and a republic, though a very corrupt one.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t remember if the leader was strong enough to count as a monarch.</p>
<p>===</p>
<p>&#8220;For everyone to be able to vote you not only need some form of instant long-distance communication to coordinate elections, you also need to be able to show everyone who they can vote for and if you have a very large state it’s not very feasible for candidates to travel all over in a limited amount of time&#8221;</p>
<p>These sorts of arguments imply that the 1787 USA couldn&#8217;t have existed.  Colonial US stretched over a long distance, and soon spread to inland areas like Kentucky.  And that&#8217;s with presidential elections and two-year House elections, never mind simply having a longer term Parliament of local reps.</p>
<p>Democracy doesn&#8217;t have to have modern forms.  You could have the European proto-democracies, of a strong king ameliorated by a nascent House of Commons or Estates-General &#8212; how many fantasies even have that?  And of course the Athenian and Roman models are pretty different from modern times, or each other, and could inspire a lot of permutations.  (They were arguably too democratic &#8212; too tied to direct democracy within the city &#8212; to extend easily to their empires, unlike US representative democracy.  Can you imagine ways in which they could have evolved their own distinctive ways of sharing power with their colonies and empire?)</p>
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		<title>By: Leanne</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101308</link>
		<dc:creator>Leanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find this post series intriguing from both the perspective of a reader and the perspective of a practicing political scientist who has studied (among other things) how governance structures evolve. (I&#039;ve got a course waiting to be taught on alternative ways of ordering inter-unit relations based on speculative fiction... If only the best books weren&#039;t so long!)

The reader in me says that monarchies offer a convenient way to both isolate and contextualize a main character - the king in waiting, the spare heir, the disgruntled uncle, the hidden king. It directs our focus to a specific individual while simultaneously placing that individual in context vis-a-vis his or her entire society. It also offers a compelling reason to care about what happens to this character - the fate of a country is in his (or her) hands, and as modern residents of democracies, that matters to us.

The political scientist in me says that monarchies are, after tribal/clan systems, the next obvious means of social aggregation. Tribal systems usually have a sense of locality - a focus on a very local geographic area - that monarchies transcend, usually because of technological improvements (roads, horses, carts) as the society evolves. (In fact, central monarchies in modern-esque states evolved as technology rendered individual clan leaders and then barons/dukes unable to defend themselves successfully.) Monarchies are personalist systems, where power is rooted in a single individual and often held by force of -- whatever makes one &#039;powerful&#039; in that particular context, which differs over time and space (even among premodern European systems). In short, they provide a lot of room for variation within a single easily-understood framework. When one says &quot;King Witgoknoph&quot;, that immediately brings to mind not only a person but an entire system of ordering social relations. No other system, including empires and democracies, carries that full system with it. So using monarchies is a shortcut of sorts for the author on world-building as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this post series intriguing from both the perspective of a reader and the perspective of a practicing political scientist who has studied (among other things) how governance structures evolve. (I&#8217;ve got a course waiting to be taught on alternative ways of ordering inter-unit relations based on speculative fiction&#8230; If only the best books weren&#8217;t so long!)</p>
<p>The reader in me says that monarchies offer a convenient way to both isolate and contextualize a main character &#8211; the king in waiting, the spare heir, the disgruntled uncle, the hidden king. It directs our focus to a specific individual while simultaneously placing that individual in context vis-a-vis his or her entire society. It also offers a compelling reason to care about what happens to this character &#8211; the fate of a country is in his (or her) hands, and as modern residents of democracies, that matters to us.</p>
<p>The political scientist in me says that monarchies are, after tribal/clan systems, the next obvious means of social aggregation. Tribal systems usually have a sense of locality &#8211; a focus on a very local geographic area &#8211; that monarchies transcend, usually because of technological improvements (roads, horses, carts) as the society evolves. (In fact, central monarchies in modern-esque states evolved as technology rendered individual clan leaders and then barons/dukes unable to defend themselves successfully.) Monarchies are personalist systems, where power is rooted in a single individual and often held by force of &#8212; whatever makes one &#8216;powerful&#8217; in that particular context, which differs over time and space (even among premodern European systems). In short, they provide a lot of room for variation within a single easily-understood framework. When one says &#8220;King Witgoknoph&#8221;, that immediately brings to mind not only a person but an entire system of ordering social relations. No other system, including empires and democracies, carries that full system with it. So using monarchies is a shortcut of sorts for the author on world-building as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101303</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Honey: that goes without saying. The point being that there were now thousands participating in the organisation of society rather than just one monarch. The classical world was brutal all over (with perhaps a few exceptions for Ashoka in India - but even he started off badly). 

As for slavery, you seem to happily ignore the massive modern slave trade that goes on today. Your clothes and shoes, your electronic items on which you type your response and so on, have quite probably arrived at your house via a slave.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honey: that goes without saying. The point being that there were now thousands participating in the organisation of society rather than just one monarch. The classical world was brutal all over (with perhaps a few exceptions for Ashoka in India &#8211; but even he started off badly). </p>
<p>As for slavery, you seem to happily ignore the massive modern slave trade that goes on today. Your clothes and shoes, your electronic items on which you type your response and so on, have quite probably arrived at your house via a slave.</p>
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		<title>By: miconian</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101299</link>
		<dc:creator>miconian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Asimov&#039;s Foundation series did not use a monarchy, except at the very beginning. But even then, it was a symbol of the decaying old order. In fact, over the course of the series, a variety of different political systems were used.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asimov&#8217;s Foundation series did not use a monarchy, except at the very beginning. But even then, it was a symbol of the decaying old order. In fact, over the course of the series, a variety of different political systems were used.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Connelly</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101290</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Connelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 01:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a back-handed acknowledgment of the central dilemma of human societies: that manipulative, violence-prone, self-centered and ruthless males(*) are the ones most likely to aggrandize themselves by coercing others to do their will, and the most likely to expend great effort putting themselves in a position where they&#039;re able to tell other people what they can and can&#039;t do, say and even think. And that these individuals, not content to lord it over their own generation, often foist their progeny on succeeding generations. After tens of thousands of years, we still haven&#039;t figured out a way to prevent these predators from rising to the top, even as we pat ourselves on the backs for democratically electing them rather than submitting to claims of divine right.

What is more puzzling is how much contemporary fantasy glamorizes these shallow egomaniacs and their dim-witted children. George R. R. Martin at least sneaks a few more realistic portrayals into his series. But science fiction and the techno-thriller (up until the latest wave of dystopian novels) have often cast presidents and prime ministers (and even some corporate tycoons) as wise and humane authority figures, when for the most part they are just as repulsive as the monarchs and tribal strongmen that preceded them. Maybe, since we can&#039;t seem to solve the problem, we&#039;ve decided to candy-coat it so it doesn&#039;t seem quite so bad (as long as we are not the ones being given the wonders of peace through drone bombing).

(*) significantly more often than not]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a back-handed acknowledgment of the central dilemma of human societies: that manipulative, violence-prone, self-centered and ruthless males(*) are the ones most likely to aggrandize themselves by coercing others to do their will, and the most likely to expend great effort putting themselves in a position where they&#8217;re able to tell other people what they can and can&#8217;t do, say and even think. And that these individuals, not content to lord it over their own generation, often foist their progeny on succeeding generations. After tens of thousands of years, we still haven&#8217;t figured out a way to prevent these predators from rising to the top, even as we pat ourselves on the backs for democratically electing them rather than submitting to claims of divine right.</p>
<p>What is more puzzling is how much contemporary fantasy glamorizes these shallow egomaniacs and their dim-witted children. George R. R. Martin at least sneaks a few more realistic portrayals into his series. But science fiction and the techno-thriller (up until the latest wave of dystopian novels) have often cast presidents and prime ministers (and even some corporate tycoons) as wise and humane authority figures, when for the most part they are just as repulsive as the monarchs and tribal strongmen that preceded them. Maybe, since we can&#8217;t seem to solve the problem, we&#8217;ve decided to candy-coat it so it doesn&#8217;t seem quite so bad (as long as we are not the ones being given the wonders of peace through drone bombing).</p>
<p>(*) significantly more often than not</p>
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		<title>By: honey</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101289</link>
		<dc:creator>honey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 00:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding Mark&#039;s comment on &quot;true Athenian democracy&quot;: The 6,000 Athenian citizens had their true democracy resting on the backs of perhaps 100,000 slaves and indentured servants who had no voting privileges or any of the benefits the 6,000 enjoyed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Mark&#8217;s comment on &#8220;true Athenian democracy&#8221;: The 6,000 Athenian citizens had their true democracy resting on the backs of perhaps 100,000 slaves and indentured servants who had no voting privileges or any of the benefits the 6,000 enjoyed.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Storrs</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101287</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Storrs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:02:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In a recently-published collection of essays on world building, &quot;Eighth Day Genesis&quot;, I argue that one of the reasons monarchies are the default in fantasy is because it embeds the story in a context of inherited power, legitimising what would seem abhorrent to modern sensitivities (see James Maxey, above). So many fantasy novels involve characters who are special because they have inherited some magical trait or power and quite often this is coupled with inherited political power (or &quot;nobility&quot; of some sort).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a recently-published collection of essays on world building, &#8220;Eighth Day Genesis&#8221;, I argue that one of the reasons monarchies are the default in fantasy is because it embeds the story in a context of inherited power, legitimising what would seem abhorrent to modern sensitivities (see James Maxey, above). So many fantasy novels involve characters who are special because they have inherited some magical trait or power and quite often this is coupled with inherited political power (or &#8220;nobility&#8221; of some sort).</p>
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		<title>By: John DeNardo</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101281</link>
		<dc:creator>John DeNardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2012 11:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101281</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes -- lots got chopped. It has been restored. Sorry about that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8212; lots got chopped. It has been restored. Sorry about that.</p>
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		<title>By: TW</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/07/mind-meld-monarchies-in-fantasy/#comment-101280</link>
		<dc:creator>TW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=58731#comment-101280</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Because Kings and Queens are sexy...Cspan not so much.

BTW - the ending of the post seems abrupt, did something get chopped?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because Kings and Queens are sexy&#8230;Cspan not so much.</p>
<p>BTW &#8211; the ending of the post seems abrupt, did something get chopped?</p>
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