<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: [GUEST POST] The Omniscient Breasts by Kate Elliott</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/</link>
	<description>A science fiction blog featuring science fiction book reviews and with frequent ramblings on fantasy, computers and the web.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 12:37:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-132698</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2013 07:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-132698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I honestly believe that many of the people who write that way do not realize they are doing it because they are so conditioned (in American culture) to see women objectified, described, pictured, etc, in that way that if they do not specifically stop to think about it they think women have to be described sexually like that. But that is a problem of the pervasive sexualization of women in US media. In other countries (like Scandinavian countries) women are more noticeably treated &quot;as human beings&quot; and so I think this kind of thing might not crop up as much. Just a theory, though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly believe that many of the people who write that way do not realize they are doing it because they are so conditioned (in American culture) to see women objectified, described, pictured, etc, in that way that if they do not specifically stop to think about it they think women have to be described sexually like that. But that is a problem of the pervasive sexualization of women in US media. In other countries (like Scandinavian countries) women are more noticeably treated &#8220;as human beings&#8221; and so I think this kind of thing might not crop up as much. Just a theory, though.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anders Ämting</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-132685</link>
		<dc:creator>Anders Ämting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-132685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speaking as a heterosexual man who mostly writes female characters, I find this both surprising and kinda disturbing. I can&#039;t quite concieve of this being done accidentally; it just seems obvious to me that you describe stuff from the perspective of your viewpoint character. :/

I can totally understand if someone did it on purpose, but not without actually being aware of it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking as a heterosexual man who mostly writes female characters, I find this both surprising and kinda disturbing. I can&#8217;t quite concieve of this being done accidentally; it just seems obvious to me that you describe stuff from the perspective of your viewpoint character. :/</p>
<p>I can totally understand if someone did it on purpose, but not without actually being aware of it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-106592</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 02:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-106592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Violet, you didn&#039;t miss anything. I think your analysis is pretty spot on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Violet, you didn&#8217;t miss anything. I think your analysis is pretty spot on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Violet</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-106440</link>
		<dc:creator>Violet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 07:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-106440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just found this page by accident and am not familiar with the writer(s) or social dynamics, but already I&#039;m stumped by Mr. Corning&#039;s interpretation of the article. I read it as Ms. Elliott pointing out that there&#039;s a time and a place for everything, but Mr. Corning seems to read it as an attack on male sexuality in general? Not sure why he keeps mentioning Twilight, either. Bella&#039;s female gaze I&#039;ve heard so much about FITS the context of Bella being a female point-of-view character. Suppose popular books with male point-of-view characters were expected to have the protagonist check himself out Bella-on-Edward-style: Wouldn&#039;t that feel creepy or at least annoying? Even if it was what female fans supposedly wanted to read, it would still lower the quality of the books because it would simply be out of place. I don&#039;t see how this concept might be construed as an attack.
Maybe I&#039;m missing something important. o_0]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found this page by accident and am not familiar with the writer(s) or social dynamics, but already I&#8217;m stumped by Mr. Corning&#8217;s interpretation of the article. I read it as Ms. Elliott pointing out that there&#8217;s a time and a place for everything, but Mr. Corning seems to read it as an attack on male sexuality in general? Not sure why he keeps mentioning Twilight, either. Bella&#8217;s female gaze I&#8217;ve heard so much about FITS the context of Bella being a female point-of-view character. Suppose popular books with male point-of-view characters were expected to have the protagonist check himself out Bella-on-Edward-style: Wouldn&#8217;t that feel creepy or at least annoying? Even if it was what female fans supposedly wanted to read, it would still lower the quality of the books because it would simply be out of place. I don&#8217;t see how this concept might be construed as an attack.<br />
Maybe I&#8217;m missing something important. o_0</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate M</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-104223</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-104223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your idea of what constitues a &#039;fantasy setting&#039; sounds incredibly limited.

It never ceases to amaze that there are fans of &#039;speculative fiction&#039; who can&#039;t speculate beyond Euro-centric fantasy worlds where white dudes have all the power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your idea of what constitues a &#8216;fantasy setting&#8217; sounds incredibly limited.</p>
<p>It never ceases to amaze that there are fans of &#8216;speculative fiction&#8217; who can&#8217;t speculate beyond Euro-centric fantasy worlds where white dudes have all the power.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jenny Ellsworth</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-104213</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny Ellsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-104213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m willing to give it a try, thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m willing to give it a try, thanks!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-103403</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 06:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-103403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I very much agree that readers read in different ways. I think you&#039;re right in your analysis. I&#039;m not actually surprised when some (not all, because not all do) male readers have trouble reading from the point of view of a female character for the reasons you cite. I think in some cases some of those male readers are disconcerted or even repulsed to be placed in that head space. If we strongly read to identify, and can&#039;t identify outside of our own experience, then it would create a disjunction.

So -- yes -- I very much see your point.

In fact, I&#039;ve seen a couple of reviews of Cold Magic, written by men, which basically say &quot;it took me a little bit to get past reading within the first person point of view but after I got used to it, it was fine.&quot; I see that as a valid statement about adjustment.

I do hope that in the fullness of time people can simply identify with people. But I&#039;m also aware we have a long way to go.

THanks for your thoughtful and perspicacious comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much agree that readers read in different ways. I think you&#8217;re right in your analysis. I&#8217;m not actually surprised when some (not all, because not all do) male readers have trouble reading from the point of view of a female character for the reasons you cite. I think in some cases some of those male readers are disconcerted or even repulsed to be placed in that head space. If we strongly read to identify, and can&#8217;t identify outside of our own experience, then it would create a disjunction.</p>
<p>So &#8212; yes &#8212; I very much see your point.</p>
<p>In fact, I&#8217;ve seen a couple of reviews of Cold Magic, written by men, which basically say &#8220;it took me a little bit to get past reading within the first person point of view but after I got used to it, it was fine.&#8221; I see that as a valid statement about adjustment.</p>
<p>I do hope that in the fullness of time people can simply identify with people. But I&#8217;m also aware we have a long way to go.</p>
<p>THanks for your thoughtful and perspicacious comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: hodge</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-103365</link>
		<dc:creator>hodge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 00:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-103365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Corning, I&#039;d just like to point out there was ONE instance of feminists burning bras, it was a minor incident done for one particular purpose at the time, and was never intended to be some grand iconic gesture meant to define feminism. It gets tiresome, hearing people refer to this as some kind of Big Important Happening.

And I&#039;d just like to point out that Harry Potter was written from the POV of, initially, an 11 year old boy. Not that 11 year old boys can&#039;t have libidos, but it&#039;s still very different from the POV of a sexually-mature, sexually-experienced man. And Twilight is only noticeable because it is an exception to the rule, and comes across as a 14-year-old girl&#039;s fantasies of what sex is all about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Corning, I&#8217;d just like to point out there was ONE instance of feminists burning bras, it was a minor incident done for one particular purpose at the time, and was never intended to be some grand iconic gesture meant to define feminism. It gets tiresome, hearing people refer to this as some kind of Big Important Happening.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;d just like to point out that Harry Potter was written from the POV of, initially, an 11 year old boy. Not that 11 year old boys can&#8217;t have libidos, but it&#8217;s still very different from the POV of a sexually-mature, sexually-experienced man. And Twilight is only noticeable because it is an exception to the rule, and comes across as a 14-year-old girl&#8217;s fantasies of what sex is all about.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-103058</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 08:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-103058</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks. I need to bookmark that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. I need to bookmark that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-103052</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 07:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-103052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I very much agree about the usefulness of genres and sub-genres. 

As you know (Bob) there&#039;s an odd place in that slipstream where writers are writing partly in and partly out of the sub genre which can create some disjunctions in expectation. So the flip side ends up being that place where the reader&#039;s expectations aren&#039;t met--if, indeed, they have a fairly set basket of expectations (although obviously not everyone does).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much agree about the usefulness of genres and sub-genres. </p>
<p>As you know (Bob) there&#8217;s an odd place in that slipstream where writers are writing partly in and partly out of the sub genre which can create some disjunctions in expectation. So the flip side ends up being that place where the reader&#8217;s expectations aren&#8217;t met&#8211;if, indeed, they have a fairly set basket of expectations (although obviously not everyone does).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-103051</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 07:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-103051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;essentially going “breasts, breasts, breasts, I have boobies, wow!” &lt;/i&gt;

This made me laugh. And yet rings so true!

As you already know, so I won&#039;t bother to elaborate, there is an entire theory about who needs to know what about what. Not to mention variations on your example above when students are given an exercise to &quot;imagine themselves as the opposite sex&quot; and the girls, by and large, write up reams of things while some significant percentage of the boys are stumped. That&#039;s a sad indictment of our culture, to my mind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>essentially going “breasts, breasts, breasts, I have boobies, wow!” </i></p>
<p>This made me laugh. And yet rings so true!</p>
<p>As you already know, so I won&#8217;t bother to elaborate, there is an entire theory about who needs to know what about what. Not to mention variations on your example above when students are given an exercise to &#8220;imagine themselves as the opposite sex&#8221; and the girls, by and large, write up reams of things while some significant percentage of the boys are stumped. That&#8217;s a sad indictment of our culture, to my mind.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-103050</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 07:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-103050</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks.

Again, I think the main problem lies when, as writers, we don&#039;t think fully about whose eyes we are seeing through and what they would be seeing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Again, I think the main problem lies when, as writers, we don&#8217;t think fully about whose eyes we are seeing through and what they would be seeing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gregory Frost</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-102967</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Frost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-102967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve found over and over in fiction writing classes, that young male writers in particular (but some grownups, too), when assigned to write from within the female POV for the first time will spend rather a lot of the exercise with their viewpoint character essentially going &quot;breasts, breasts, breasts, I have boobies, wow!&quot;  While they&#039;re busy doing that, the female writers are of course inhabiting male consciousnesses. And they are pointedly (sorry about the pun) not going &quot;penis, penis, penis, cock, wow, erection!&quot;  Although perhaps they should be given what&#039;s going on in the other half of the room...  

No one has told them how to shape their characters&#039; interiorities, thus they are creating what they *think* that sounds like. It would seem that by default there is most definitely a distinct male gaze and a female gaze.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve found over and over in fiction writing classes, that young male writers in particular (but some grownups, too), when assigned to write from within the female POV for the first time will spend rather a lot of the exercise with their viewpoint character essentially going &#8220;breasts, breasts, breasts, I have boobies, wow!&#8221;  While they&#8217;re busy doing that, the female writers are of course inhabiting male consciousnesses. And they are pointedly (sorry about the pun) not going &#8220;penis, penis, penis, cock, wow, erection!&#8221;  Although perhaps they should be given what&#8217;s going on in the other half of the room&#8230;  </p>
<p>No one has told them how to shape their characters&#8217; interiorities, thus they are creating what they *think* that sounds like. It would seem that by default there is most definitely a distinct male gaze and a female gaze.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gregory Frost</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-102964</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Frost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-102964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff,
Yeah, I knew what you meant.

-gf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,<br />
Yeah, I knew what you meant.</p>
<p>-gf</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chuck Gannon</title>
		<link>http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/09/guest-post-the-omniscient-breasts-by-kate-elliott/#comment-102817</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Gannon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfsignal.com/?p=61681#comment-102817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Kate:
Being a renegade (i.e. no longer in the classroom) Professor of English and former head of a grad MA program, I have written more than my share of essays, thank you!  ;^)  

But I appreciate the compliment muchly. I absolutely loved the accessibility and yet penetrating insight of your essay.

I should remark that your experience of writing from within a self-imposed, tightly constrained 3 pers PoV sounds very similar to mine. As I write within the SF intrigue/epic line, it is often a kind of extra burden that I bear for my own reasons, not those of the field. But I often reflect how, if our genre eschewed such short-cuts and sloppiness as what you have put under the interrogation lights in your piece, we might begin to shed even more of the &quot;paraliterature&quot; reputation that goes back to the days of Gernsback.

Hey, a guy/gal can wish, right?

Really like your essay (I&#039;ve not responded at this length, or with this degree of effusion, with anything blogged or FB&#039;d before), and I enjoy our exchange here.

Best wishes and I&#039;ll Be Watching for Your Name!
Chuck Gannon]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Kate:<br />
Being a renegade (i.e. no longer in the classroom) Professor of English and former head of a grad MA program, I have written more than my share of essays, thank you!  ;^)  </p>
<p>But I appreciate the compliment muchly. I absolutely loved the accessibility and yet penetrating insight of your essay.</p>
<p>I should remark that your experience of writing from within a self-imposed, tightly constrained 3 pers PoV sounds very similar to mine. As I write within the SF intrigue/epic line, it is often a kind of extra burden that I bear for my own reasons, not those of the field. But I often reflect how, if our genre eschewed such short-cuts and sloppiness as what you have put under the interrogation lights in your piece, we might begin to shed even more of the &#8220;paraliterature&#8221; reputation that goes back to the days of Gernsback.</p>
<p>Hey, a guy/gal can wish, right?</p>
<p>Really like your essay (I&#8217;ve not responded at this length, or with this degree of effusion, with anything blogged or FB&#8217;d before), and I enjoy our exchange here.</p>
<p>Best wishes and I&#8217;ll Be Watching for Your Name!<br />
Chuck Gannon</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
